Yes he would have. Using plot as an excuse for Luffy to lose is BS. So ur telling me that without plot, Luffy could beat someone like Akainu or some other logia that is far superior to him in every way?
Originally Posted by LuffyVsGoku
No. Just because it was important to the story doesn't mean anything. Crocodile won. Simple as that. Saying he came back in the third match and won is complete BS. In any vs game, the person who gets 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 wins. I can use analogies to as to why Crocodile wins and is stronger.
the analogies perfectly depict the concept. you cant say Croc is better than Luffy when Luffy beat him when it mattered most. Croc was defeated, did not obtain the poneglyph, was arrested and sent to Impel Down and you say Luffy lost is ridiculous. the last fight was the most important fight out of the 3 and Croc lost.
Luffy never had any advantage over Croc. Croc always had the advantage: 1 desert environment, 2 he can create a desert environment, 3 he can absorb water, 4 he is a logia and Luffy didnt have haki yet. Croc did not care about protecting no ruins, he even said that he would just recover the poneglyph either way and turn everything else to sand
Crocodile always had the advantage simply due to being a logia. All that other stuff was just icing on the cake. Luffy won due to plot help. I don't see how u can't get this. In a real battle where those two fight, Crocodile will inevitably win.
U know full well as I do that Luffy has never bled that much in any other fight which means that was due to plot. In the battle with Arlong, he bit Luffy plenty of times yet he didn't bleed as bad as he did in Arabasta. Also in every other fight he hardly bled.
Luffy was purposely covered in blood because he figured that blood had the same effect on Croc as water did
Luffy pwning Croc with blood covered fists
Croc realizes why Luffy is able to hit him is due to blood and not water
Luffy confirms that hes aware that blood helps him hit Croc
when people fight they end up getting hurt and bleed. Luffy fought Croc twice and was badly injured and bled. are you going to say Luffy bleeding was part of plot? well yea it was because Luffy getting injured the first 2 fights allowed him to bleed and use it to his advantage so Luffy losing the first 2 were due to plot as well.
You are avoiding the point bringing up plot. The point of this thread is who would win in a match again. The clear winner is Crocodile but your saying that Luffy is gonna exploit his weakness and win but the truth is, Crocodile will still have the overall advantage and win. He's a long range fighter, he can turn the area into a desert. He can easily skewer Luffy and send him flying with a sand tornado if Luffy ever tries getting close and "exploit" Crocodile's weakness. If ur going to give Luffy knowledge of Crocodile's weakness then u might aswell give Crocodile knowledge of everything that's happened before aswell
everything is plot. plot is not a solid arguement in any situation. never is. and like you said it is a double edge sword. as ridiculous as it sounds when i use it, its the same whenever "plot" is being used as an excuse for any other situation. its invalid.
when someone wins its due to plot. when someone loses its also due to plot. Croc lost the last fight due to plot. why? cuz the story is about Luffy and ultimately Croc is going to lose. i can use plot to explain anything in the story because the plot is the story.
Luffy was able to hit and hurt Croc using water and blood. Luffy was able to hit Enel as well due to obvious reasons. so your statement is not entirely true. and with that said one can logically assume that every Logia can be hit in a without haki in some form or another. for Croc it had to be with water, blood or a form of liquid. for Enel it had to be with rubber.
Don't give islands as an excuse to find water. U know full well how large islands are and the only way Luffy will have access to water is if they just so happen to be on a reef or beach. Anything other then that will just be giving Luffy help.
but Luffy can always make his hands bleed and punch Croc in the face. also Luffy can always find water.
its not a miracle to find water in OP. in OP they are always surrounded by water because they are either on an island or on a boat. yes how hard is it for Luffy to make himself bleed? he bites his fists and he can instantly punch Croc.
Make himself bleed hmm? When Luffy goes Gear 3rd he bites so hard that he is able to bite into his bone marrow to expand it. If someone bit u that hard, u would most deffinately bleed. Why doesn't he? And thats still not gonna help him actually win against Croc even if he can touch him now because Croc is gonna be smart and just send barrages of sand attacks at him that will inevitably kill or seriously injure him. Plus he can grab Luffy and suck him dry again like what happened the first time.
Just because ur on an island doesn't automatically give u access to water.... Or did u forget how big they were when u were trying to use that as an argument. To biting his hands to bleed, how do u explain Gear 3rd?
1. plot help? than you might as well place them in an environment where they arent on an island or a boat. oh wait than might as well place them on another manga universe like naruto, the Hidden Leaf village. and take away the fact that Luffy can bleed, so even if he bites his hands or gets pierced or impaled he cant bleed. but wouldnt that be giving Croc plot help?
Croc can absorb any liquid including blood... Plus one touch and Luffy is dried squid lol
2. yea but Luffy will also be prepared as well now wont he? and Luffy doesnt need to use water he can use blood. Croc didnt do to well agaisnt blood did he?
Ur ignoring the fact that Croc is stronger. Try using that plot argument as much as u want but it's not gonna change people's minds. If not for plot Luffy would have died. Simple as that. Crocodile was shown to be stronger. Knowledge isn't gonna change that fact that he's gonna win again.
your ignoring that Luffy found his weakness on his own accord, and when water did not work Luffy again found a way to hit Croc. plot also helped Croc to win the first 2 fights, another thing you are ignoring. if it wasnt for plot Croc wouldnt even be a logia.
Last edited by Kazu D. Mikura; 04-18-2012 at 07:40 PM.
"The Storm Rider of the Marines"
"I'll ride my own road!"
Originally Posted by skoraxascended
Originally Posted by The
Originally Posted by ~Bruce~
what is your highest level of english comprehension and literature? seriously? you have to be under high school level
Originally Posted by Sabo
everything in the manga is due to plot. do you even know what plot is? i will give a definition, again, for you later on in this comment.
im going to address this topic about the plot
Originally Posted by Raven D. Tai
Plot is a literary term defined as the events that makes up the story, particularly as they relate to one another in a pattern, in a sequence, through cause and effect, or by coincidence. One is generally interested in how well this pattern of events accomplishes some artistic or emotional effect.
Plot - the arrangement of ideas and/or incidents that make up a story
•Foreshadowing - When the writer clues the reader in to something that will eventually occur in the story; it may be explicit (obvious) or implied (disguised).
•Suspense - The tension that the author uses to create a feeling of discomfort about the unknown
•Conflict - Struggle between opposing forces.
•Exposition - Background information regarding the setting, characters, plot.
•Rising Action - The process the story follows as it builds to its main conflict
•Crisis - A significant turning point in the story that determines how it must end
•Resolution/Denouement - The way the story turns out.
everything that happens in a story is part of the plot. when Luffy won agaisnt Croc it was part of the plot. when Croc beat Luffy it was part of the plot. im no longer addressing the issue with plot, i have explained already that it is invalid and plainly really stupid to keep saying someone won due to plot when the whole story happens due to plot.
now with that said Luffy learned how to hit Croc without haki. that means Luffy can inflict pain on Croc. saying Croc cannot be hit by Luffy without Haki is invalid.
OP is a world of islands. there is water everywhere. so Luffy always have access to water, no matter how big an island is. that is fact. So Luffy always has means to wet his body and use water to fight Croc. again fact
Luffy can bleed, Luffy has bled in the fight agaisnt Croc and in many other fights. it doesnt matter if he bleeds more agaisnt this enemy or that, that is irrelevant. fact is Luffy can bleed and use his blood to hit Croc. fact
Luffy bites his finger to use gear 3 is irrelevant. the illustrator does not focus on the blood that comes from when Luffy bites his finger so of course you dont see it. its like expecting ninjas to bleed when they bite themselves to do summonings. we know they bleed but we dont see it either. Kishi doesnt go into a close up shot of the ninjas fingers just to see the blood and Oda doesnt do a close up to see Luffys fingers to see blood either but we can infer that Luffy bleeds because he bites his finger and Luffy has blood in his body, or maybe you think hes just a mass of jelly or air??
Luffy and Crocs fight were 3 separate battles, not separate fights. Croc did not get a 2 out of 3 from Luffy because their fights were continous. they both had a long period of time between each battle but it was one whole continous fight. we can separate the fights into 3 where Croc had the upper hand in the first 2 but he ultimately lost the war. your anology of video games is invalid because its not 3 separate fights and its not about who had the most victories, its about who won the last fight.
If we had to weigh in the pros and cons of both Luffy and Croc one can logically see who won the fight.
-in the end, Croc was arrested, he went to impel down, he did not gain the poneglyph, his BW was disbanded and destroyed, his agents defeated, he lost his title as shichibukai, his plan to destroy alabasta failed.
-Luffy was not arrested, did not go to impel down instead he was spoiled with food from alabasta, Luffy gained a new crewmate, Luffys crew did not disband, Luffys crew became stronger and beat BW, Luffy bounty went up due to beating a shichibukai, Luffys plan to beat Croc was a success.
as you can see Croc did not gain anything positive at the end of his fights with Luffy while Luffy gained much positive from his fight with Croc. Luffy is the winner based on the results of both Luffys and Crocs situations.
Also this isnt a video game. in a real fight or sports it doesnt matter who gains the most wins during the season but who wins the final game, the championship game, the final round or quarter or inning. besides Luffy and Crocs fight was continous, it was a fight that lasted for the whole day, and in the end of the day Croc was knocked out by Luffy, Luffy was spoiled with food and partied while Croc went to Impel Down.
and yes it was all due to plot because the story is plot. without plot you have no story.
I simply don't agree with you here.
Originally Posted by LuffyVsGoku
The reason why we state plot is because if it weren't for it, Luffy was not going to beat Crocodile at all.
Yet you say Luffy was stronger regardless if the plot had anything to do with it.
Have you taken into account how Luffy came back everytime he got beat? It's evident you don't.
Luffy was dry bones, if it weren't for the plot of things that water wouldn't have landed. Result - Luffy, Dead or Victory Crocodile.
I have nothing else to add because you're oblivious to such matters.
Also don't go looking for arguments here(OPB), you know as well as I do there is a lack of opinions when it comes to debating.
if you said Luffy was lucky i would agree. but how many times i have to tell you what plot is?
Originally Posted by Sabo
yes i have taken into account that Luffy was impaled, thrown into quicksand, dried bones and all. but while you say its plot that he beat Croc i can say it was plot that Luffy was impaled, thrown into quicksand and dried bones. and i would be right because everything that happens in the story is plot. please i dont feel like repeating this anymore go educate yourself in literary terms and understand exactly what "plot" is
you use plot out of context. you use everything out of context. you dont even know what a fanboy or troll is for you to have called anyone an idiot or stupid, isnt that ironic
Black: You're not convincing anyone the way you press your beliefs. You would be right if I agreed with things from your perspective. I just don't agree with that.
Originally Posted by LuffyVsGoku
Use Plot however you want, but Luffy wasn't stronger than Crocodile in Alabasta.
We can go back and forth on this, and never reach an agreement on things.
Agree to disagree?
Red: Out of Context? Please, you take fiction too serious.
Does it matter what someone calls you? Do I have to answer you?
Let me roll out some facts.
This debate was shut down, yet you wanted to revive it in another thread. Why? So you can troll people who don't agree with you. Same shit, new Forum.
You did similar things on NB.
now your just spamming. please if your not going to give a logical reason to why Croc beats Luffy than dont participate in here.
Originally Posted by Sabo
im not a troll nor a fanboy. if you disagree with someone or someone doesnt share your viewpoint or way of thinking it doesnt mean they are a troll or a fanboy. it just means they think differently from you. do you want me to apoligize for having my own opinion about the manga?
and i dont have an account in NB, ass.
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